6 Connections You Should Make That’ll Help You Market Your Music

If you know anything about me, you know that I think networking is an important part of building your music career.

In this post via British Solomon, you’ll learn about six types of connections you should be making to advance your career.

By the way, if you think you’ve got what it takes to contribute to The Music Entrepreneur HQ, you can find our submission guidelines here.

Now, onto the goods!

The music business is one of the most difficult industries to survive in, let alone thrive in. So many talented musicians and bands are competing for only a few slots in an ever-changing environment. With all of the talent that is around, have you ever wondered why some people are hitting the top 100 charts, and others are playing at the same bar every Friday and Saturday night, barely able to pay their utility bill off of what they make?

Well, as in a lot of creative industries, your marketing tactics and connections play a major role in whether you get discovered. Here are a few connections that you should add to your list of people who can promote your music.

1. Restaurant & Store Owners

Most restaurants and stores have some sort of music in the background. Try to reach out to some of these people and see if they are interested in playing some of your music.

Cafés are great for many genres, but try to tailor your connections to the types of environments that customers are likely to enjoy or be interested in while they are dining or shopping.

For instance, if you have a rock band, try getting your music in an edgy clothing shop. The other great thing about restaurant and store owners is that, by the nature of their jobs, they come into contact with sometimes hundreds of customers a day, and their networks expand out beyond their clientele.

If they like your work and the concept of the store is right, they might even be willing to work with you on other promotional materials.

2. Music Bloggers

Who better to write about music than a blogger who has dedicated a significant amount of time developing a blog about music, and has cultivated a loyal following of music enthusiasts.

It’s also not as difficult as you might think; hey, they’re looking for new music to discuss and promote, so it’s a win for you, the musician, the blogger, and the readers who get to learn about fantastic new voices and bands.

Like the example above, put a little bit of research into the possible blogs that you think your music would fit with.

3. Disk Jockeys

DJs have also made connections with hundreds of people in the industry they could forward your album to, and if they like you stuff, they’ll likely play it at their next gig. If you cultivate a relationship with a DJ, they might be able to connect you with others who would be interested in promoting it. This option is especially viable depending on your chosen genre of music.

4. YouTubers, Vloggers, and Podcasters

Connecting with these people is somewhat similar to connecting with a blogger, except the medium is different. Because of these differences in medium, each one will be able to highlight your music in different ways. Bloggers can give a review of your music, but vloggers and podcasters can reach other audiences in different ways. With a vlogger or podcaster, they might be interested in giving you an on-air interview or, if you have a music video, a vlog might be a good place to showcase a clip of that video.

The niche of the vlog or podcaster doesn’t specifically need to be music-releated either. There are endless DIY makeup tutorials, product reviews, or gaming videos that play music in the background.

You can even reach out to create their introduction song for their vlog or podcast, which opens up the market to even more niches. Keep in mind their target audience to see if your music would be a good fit for their viewers.

5. Other Artists

Speaking of music videos, if you want to make one, you can connect with a videographer. They will use their channels to showcase the amazing video they produced for you.

Also, you’ll likely want beautiful cover art and layout design. A good idea could be to connect with an artist or graphic designer. Like a videographer, visual artists can promote their new artwork, thus sharing your album or single cover with people in their network.

Addiotionally, stay in connection with other musicians. If you are a pianist, connect with a singer for a collaboration. They may invite you to play at their next performance.

Likewise, music is nearly a part of every aspect of the entertainment industry. You can form mutually beneficial connections with dancers, up-and-coming filmmakers, playwrights, and other creatives.

6. Music Teacher

Whether it was that great high school choir teacher who liked to dabble in various genres, or a college professor, or a piano teacher, these people have been singing and playing music for decades. See if they’d be interested in using a piece of your music to teach their students.

If they like your material, imagine the hundreds of students that will be learning and practicing your music, exercise, or instrumental. Not to mention the advice the teacher may have for you. They might know some people or be able to give you advice to help you come up with more ways you can promote your music.


In the music business, it might seem like you are up against all odds to rise above the rest. Promoting your music can require a bit of creativity. The good news is that if you embrace marketing your music and treat it like a business, you’ll be much more likely to land more gigs of better quality, and grow your reputation.

081 – What Did I Accomplish in 2017?

When you make huge leaps forward in your life, you feel exhilarated.

But if you end up looking back on those achievements and compare them to your present reality, you could feel discouraged depending on the amount of progress you feel you’ve made.

So, it’s important to celebrate every victory, no matter how big or small we feel it was.

In this episode of The New Music Industry Podcast, I share what I feel I accomplished in 2017.

Podcast Highlights:

  • 00:14 – Reflecting on 2016 and what I accomplished
  • 00:56 – Reflecting on 2017 and what I accomplished
  • 01:28 – How I enjoyed freedom in 2017
  • 04:16 – How I achieved greater clarity last year
  • 05:52 – How I became healthier last year
  • 07:12 – Final thoughts on 2017 and why it was different for me


As I think back on 2016, I recognize that one of my biggest achievements was going from working several jobs at several locations to becoming a full-time work-from-home freelancer and entrepreneur.

Prior to that, I had been working as a guitar instructor, theatre technician, and freelance writer. By summer 2016, my ghostwriting and freelance writing work had taken off to the point where I didn’t feel I needed the other off-site work anymore.

As exciting as these changes were, it was a bit scary going from working in several capacities to narrowing my focus to one thing. But if that hadn’t worked out, I may not be sitting here sharing these insights with you on the podcast today.

So, recently I gave some thought as to what I had accomplished in 2017. At first, I didn’t feel like it was quite the standout year 2016 was. I encountered many challenges and went through a great deal of growth in 2017, especially in my personal life, but because of that, my revenue numbers suffered compared to 2016.

As I reflected, however, I realized that revenue figures aren’t everything. I still accomplished a great deal that I’m proud of last year.

Revenue figures aren't everything. Share on X

So, here are three things I accomplished in 2017.

1. Freedom

Many of us get into business because of the freedom it offers.

I love what Christopher Sutton of Musical U said in episode 68 of the podcast:

…as an entrepreneur, you have incredible freedom from day one and you can increase that over time as your business grows and becomes more successful.

When you think “freedom” as an entrepreneur, what comes to mind is probably the laptop lifestyle. The ability to go anywhere you want, and work from any beach you want across the world.

I’ve probably been able to live that type of lifestyle since 2016, since my work was no longer tied to a physical location. I probably had enough freelancing income to do it even a year prior to that.

There are reasons why I didn’t do that. For one, I had – and still have – several collaborative projects I work on with people I respect and admire in Calgary. For another, I had lost sight of anything outside of work between 2014 and the first half of 2017. My life was work, as I’ve shared in earlier podcast episodes. That meant it didn’t matter a whole lot where I was in the world, because I hardly interacted with anyone.

I had some vague notion of visiting Japan in 2017, and I knew I couldn’t delay that trip any longer because I had been thinking about it for a couple of years, but I had no idea just how vital that experience would be for me. Most of the year appeared to be going along smoothly, at least until June. More on that in a second.

Prior to leaving for Japan, I was sick and burnt out, and barely able to function. I was beat up in virtually every capacity – physically, emotionally, mentally, and spiritually. I’ll talk more about burnout in a future podcast episode.

So, going back to what I was saying about June. I was already nearing burnout at that stage. I would catch myself working straight through the day, getting up only to go to the washroom, make meals, and walk the dog. I would end my days at 10, 11, or 12 at night, with barely any time left to wind down before going to bed and starting the same cycle all over again.

That’s when a friend interrupted my life and changed it for the better. She started taking me out on adventures and showing me that there is a life outside of work. She drew things out of me that were probably always there, but I had simply forgotten or shoved down. I felt like I was going through personal transformation.

In ensuing months, I ended up taking liberties and exercising quite a bit of freedom. And, to some extent, that has carried over into the New Year.

I also took breaks. I went on a weekend trip to British Columbia with another friend in August. I went to Chase, BC for a week the same month. Then, in November, I finally got to make a return trip to Japan after 14 years of not visiting.

These events, however, were planned. I didn’t just wake up one day and say to myself, “I should go to Japan next month”. I had been planning for these trips, because I knew I had failed at taking proper breaks in years prior, despite my best intentions.

There is greater freedom to be had, and I’m in pursuit of that. But I’m glad I took some time out to “rebalance my life” in 2017.

2. Clarity

The Music Entrepreneur HQ has been a passion project of mine for many years.

I’ve built lot of other niche websites and blogs over the years, but after I started seeing some traction with this project idea, I decided to dedicate more time to it, and even redirected many of my other domain names to The Music Entrepreneur HQ.

I think writing and publishing my book had something to do with that decision as well. Out of any product I had ever created online, including music, other courses and eBooks, the one that consistently drove revenue was the book.

I may be driven and prolific, but I don’t think I could have written books for all my blogs and websites. And, it’s possible I would have had to do that to drive income from those sites as well.

I had to make some tough decisions about what I wanted to focus on, but with my email list and traffic at The Music Entrepreneur HQ growing, it seemed like a no brainer to continue to add value to the world through this channel. And, as you’ve surely discovered, I’ve been sharing about a lot of things that you wouldn’t typically find on a music blog.

Despite having a few sources of revenue, up until recently, I wasn’t entirely sure what my business model was. After spending some time in Japan reflecting and letting my thoughts simmer, I finally achieved clarity around what The Music Entrepreneur HQ was and could be.

As you can imagine, that makes it a lot easier for me to know what to focus on moving forward. And, gradually, after the whirlwind events of 2017, I’m finding my focus and determination again. Being in a new environment certainly helps – I feel happier, more creative, and more energetic in my new home.

It’s time to take this business above and beyond!

3. Health

I had set the intention to focus on my health in 2017. I’ve already shared quite a bit about this in episode 79 of the podcast.

This was important to me, because I felt my workouts in 2016 weren’t yielding results, and in some ways, I was beginning to feel worse off physically. I knew I had to make different decisions in 2017.

“Health” was even a theme word of mine for 2017.

Having set that intention, I was surprised to find the universe presenting me with new opportunities to care for my wellbeing.

One friend asked if I wanted to work out with him, and showed me how to eat healthier. Another took me to hot yoga a couple of times, and sometimes went on walks with me. Yet another told me about humic and fulvic acids, and how these liquids could help with gut health and clarity of mind.

During the summer, I was incredibly restless and went on a lot of walks, both during the day, and oftentimes at night. I loved those late-night walks, despite how unbalanced I was feeling emotionally while on them. It gave me time to process my thoughts, and I felt like those walks brought a lot of clarity to my life.

I wouldn’t say I’ve achieved all my health and fitness goals. But I have more energy, I’ve gained muscle mass, toned up, and cut fat. That’s the direction I want to continue towards in 2018.

Some friends have commented on the many changes I’ve gone through physically, and it inspires me to push ahead.


2017 was a different kind of year for me, but it’s almost as if it had to be that way.

If I had kept up the crazy schedule I was living in the first half of the year, I might be in the hospital and not sitting here and sharing my journey with you as I am today.

If I hadn’t set the intention to become healthier and to grow as an individual, likewise that could have led to some poor choices and unwanted consequences.

I needed to change, and I had set the intention to do exactly that. But it’s almost as if the universe had to shake me awake before I was willing to do anything about it. I didn’t know what steps to take, and I needed the help of some friends to show me.

2017 was difficult, but I believe I will remember it fondly. Now, it’s 2018, and my life is changing again. I look forward to the journey and adventures ahead.

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3 Ways to Boost Your Gig Attendance

3 Ways to Boost Your Gig Attendance

The Canadian live music scene is booming and it doesn’t just apply to concerts by Justin Bieber and The Weeknd. During 2016, 34.8% of Canadians who responded to a survey said they attended a music festival during the year, up from 29.4% during 2015.

Consumer spending on music related activities has been undergoing various changes in recent years. In 2016, the admission to live music shows and the purchase of physical music accounted for 31% and 16% of total consumer expenditure respectively.

As an artist, your fan-base is supposed to grow over time with your show attendance reflecting that. While it is natural to hit a plateau from time to time, you need to investigate why it is happening.

If the turnout at your local gigs is constantly low or stagnant, there are three key areas you need to investigate: Your promotional plan, the shows themselves, and finally, your music. By making changes to even just one of these areas, you can draw a significantly larger crowd to your shows in the future.

1. What is Your Promotional Strategy?

A local show needs to be promoted at least two months prior to the event, and should include both print and electronic marketing. It is easy to fall into a repetitive routine that relies on the absolute minimal effort, and while this may be enough at times, you will not see any growth in attendance unless you make the effort to formulate a relevant and effective promotional strategy.

Here are some key things to be thinking about:

  • Seek exposure from local internet or college radio stations.  Find a show that fits your style and audience and inquire about a guest appearance. At the very least, you may be able to secure some airplay for your music as well as advertise your upcoming gigs.

  • Seek out online and print press. Features, interviews and reviews can do wonders for your career in terms of creating awareness for your music. If you are battling to get the attention of more well-known outlets, you can work towards it by collecting clips from blogs as they are often run by great writers with a loyal following.

  • Boost your event on Facebook. Even people who are formally invited to an event can overlook or miss it due to Facebook’s algorithms. Boosting your event will increase its chances of being noticed.

2. What Are Your Gigs Like?

Several factors determine whether your shows are well-received or not. The most obvious of these is of course how good your set is.

Other factors to consider are the day of the week you are performing, as well as where you are performing. If you do the same things every time you perform without seeing any improvement in attendance, you should consider changing things up.  Try a new live-music venue or a different day of the week, and see if you notice any changes as far as attendance is concerned.

It is important to perform regularly while avoiding over-saturation. If you have been playing similar gigs at the same few venues for years without fail, perhaps you should take a break to allow some excitement to build in between your shows.

You can also employ a number of tactics to make your shows more memorable, such as tributes, benefits and going all out with décor, etc. Make attending your shows as appealing and as easy as possible for your fans. A secure venue as well as an ethical and reliable ticket-sales system are just two of many crucial factors that require careful consideration.

3. Do People Enjoy Your Music?

Your show attendance will never increase if people don’t enjoy your music. It is very noble to hold onto your integrity as an artist, but if people are not responding well to your music you may have to rethink your approach.

Perhaps your particular genre of music is not popular where you live, or people have just not warmed up to your stage personality yet. As harrowing as it may be, you need to seek honest feedback about your music and if necessary, either adapt your material or seek an audience that will appreciate it.


Live music will always remain an important part of the music industry. While music streaming and online music videos are skyrocketing in popularity, nothing beats the exhilaration experienced from attending a live show.  As a musician, it is imperative to never disregard the power of live music. If your fans attend and enjoy your shows, they are bound to support all areas of your career, boosting your chances of becoming a commercial success.

5 Ways to Become a Better Band Member

This guest post comes to us via Nick Rubright of Dozmia.

If you think you have something worth sharing with the community, check out our guest post submission guidelines.

Alright, now let’s learn how to become a better band member.

When you’re playing in a band, it’s important to maintain momentum in songwriting, recording, and gigging, but if you aren’t able to get along with your band mates, the ability for your band to keep these things going could be at risk.

Oftentimes, we think our band mates are the problem, but if you take the time to examine your own actions and habits, you might find that you are a bigger part of the problem than you initially thought.

To keep your band alive, you need to learn to be a team player – unless you want to leave your band, get yourself a looper pedal, and become a one-man show.

Working with others can be tough. I recently started a band after meeting some great musicians that I worked well with, but I struggled to be a team player and it stalled our progress on many occasions.

Here are some things I learned along the way that helped me get along with my band members and keep things moving forward

1. Be Reliable

Nothing will piss off great band members more than not getting things done when you say you will.  Stick to your word – if you say you’re going to work on a chorus, guitar solo, or a new intro – do it. Even if what you’re working on isn’t finished, have something to show at next practice.

If you’re not a reliable band member, it’s unreasonable to expect that your band mates will be too.

If you can’t complete a task or know you’re going to be busy for the next week, be honest – just tell your band members. It’s better to be upfront than to have them expect something and not deliver.

2. Communicate Effectively

Be quick to respond to texts or Facebook messages with your band mates. If they need some input from you on something before they can move forward, waiting days to reply can put a huge delay on your progress. Check your phone and Facebook accounts every night to make sure you don’t miss anything.

An even bigger part of communication is being a good listener. This is personally one of my weaknesses, but being in a band has forced me to be better at it.  For example, if someone who doesn’t understand music theory is trying to explain how they want a part to go, try and listen for what they mean instead of what they’re saying, because what they’re saying might not be exactly correct.

3. Focus on What’s Best for the Band, Not What’s Best for You

When I started my band, I wanted to play faster guitar parts in nearly every song. After a few practices, I sat down with my band members and tried to get a better understanding of what everyone wanted. We all had different music tastes, but we had one song that we’d written that all of us loved, so we decided to base our style around that. Unfortunately for me, it didn’t have fast guitar parts – it was a pretty basic song with standard three and four-chord progressions – but this ended up being the best decision for the band and is what gave us our somewhat unique sound.

It’s best to move forward with something that the whole band is on board with. Do what you can to keep your band members happy, not just yourself. If you write something and it just isn’t what’s best for the song, set it aside and try not to be too attached to it. It’s difficult, but it’s worth it in the long run.

4. Do Things Outside of Band Practice

If you want to get the best out of your band, you need to be like family. Getting together with your band mates outside of practice strengthens your personal bond and allows you to be more open with each other, which can spawn great song ideas, and will make your journey to fame and fortune more enjoyable for everyone invovled.

5. Be Open to New Ideas – and be Honest About the Ones You Dislike

This was another of my biggest weaknesses. When I started playing in this band, I became very attached to some parts and songs I wrote. Once I started to be open to changes, my drummer, vocalist, and I started working all of our ideas into songs, and they became much better as result.

Additionally, make sure you’re open with your band members if you don’t like a part of a song. When my band went into the studio to record one of our first songs, nobody liked the chorus – we all just thought everyone else did. Had someone spoken up, we could have made the appropriate changes to the song before the studio dates.

It’s also important to be honest with yourself about the parts you write. Are they really what’s best for the song? Did you give yourself enough time away from the part to form an outside perspective? If your band mates don’t like something you’ve come up with, don’t take it personally – nobody is perfect. Just keep writing until you can come up with something everyone likes.

080 – Secrets to Learning – with Ian Temple of Soundfly

We all tend to consume a lot of information. But how much of that information sticks with you? Are you applying what you learn?

In this episode of The New Music Industry Podcast, I talk to Ian Temple of Soundfly, who’s an expert on the topic of how people learn, and how we can learn more efficiently and retain more of the information we take in.

Podcast Highlights:

  • 00:14 – Introduction
  • 00:28 – What is Soundfly, and how does it help musicians?
  • 01:45 – What types of courses can you find on Soundfly?
  • 03:50 – What are musicians missing about setting goals and achieving what they desire?
  • 06:39 – Customized or personalized curriculums for music students
  • 07:47 – Different styles of learning
  • 10:27 – Self-directed learning
  • 12:48 – Mentorship and accountability
  • 15:35 – Why build a business serving artists?
  • 18:29 – The opportunities music offers
  • 20:43 – What’s the biggest lesson you’ve learned about leadership?
  • 24:57 – With knowledge being as commoditized as it is, how do you build interest in your business?
  • 28:26 – Learning through repetition
  • 30:10 – How do you market your business, and what’s working for you right now?
  • 34:13 – Content marketing
  • 35:42 – What have you learned from your recording and performance career?
  • 39:19 – What are some of the biggest struggles you’ve encountered as an entrepreneur?
  • 40:30 – What are some of the biggest victories you’ve experienced as an entrepreneur?
  • 43:14 – Are there any books that have helped you on your journey?
  • 47:10 – Providing value for your customers
  • 49:21 – What tools and apps are you using to run your business?
  • 50:36 – Is there anything else I should have asked?


David Andrew Weibe: Today I am chatting with CEO and founder of Soundfly, Ian Temple. How are you today Ian?

Ian Temple: Good. Thanks. How are you?

David: I’m fantastic. Thank you for asking.

Ian: Thank you for having me.

David: Oh yeah. No, it’s an honor. So, what is Soundfly and how does it help musicians?

Ian: Yeah. Soundfly is basically a different kind of online music school. We exist to help musicians meet their goals. That can be many sorts of musical goals whether producing a professional sounding track from scratch or composing your first-string quartet or booking your next big tour. That’s what drives us to do what we do.

And the way we do that is we have free daily articles that are of interest to musicians. We have free mini courses that take you through a kind of single musical topic in a sitting. And then, we provide mentor services to musicians either paired with content or not in which we help musicians by pairing them with a personal trainer. Basically, someone who has knowledge and expertise in their field who works with them for a month or more to help them meet their goals. So, multiple levels of helping musicians achieve things and learn new things.

David: It’s fascinating and there’s a couple things you touched on that I definitely want to dig deeper into. I think the first thing is what types of courses can musicians expect to find on your website? You just mentioned a few different subjects, but it sounds like you offer a lot and most topics are covered in a sense.

Ian: Yes. It’s funny because when we started out we started… I’m a pianist myself so we started just by kind of messing around with like some beginner piano content to try and learn about the market. One thing we discovered pretty quickly early on was number one, there was already a glut of bigger piano content out there.

David: Of course.

Ian: And number two, you know I like to say going from zero to one as a musician if you know nothing about music it’s really hard because it’s not that much fun to practice when you don’t know anything. Right? And yet that’s kind of the area that so many people are chasing. I mean there are some amazing resources out there like [Usician 00:02:53] or Playground Sessions that kind of try and provide that service.

What we felt was missing was once people already know a little bit about music or already have some kind of knowledge and how did they learn all the things you need to know as a modern musician in today’s music world to kind of succeed or to achieve their goals. And so, we focused a lot on courses on production, or composition, helping you with your song writing, or you know one of our most popular courses is orchestrating for strings, how to use a [da 00:03:30], how to make beats. And then some music business stuff – how to actually market yourself as a musician and stuff like that.

So, yeah. It’s been really interesting seeing that that was really where there was a hole in the market and that’s really where we’ve tried to fill in and support musicians.

David: What are musicians missing about setting goals and achieving the level of success they desire?

Ian: That’s a great question. I think there are couple big things that we think about here at Soundfly. The first one is that you’d be amazed by how many music students just come to us with a really big dream and no idea how to get there. Right? So, when we in take a new student to work with one of our mentors, the first thing we ask them is what do you want to learn? What’s your big goal?

So many of them are just like “oh write a hit track”, or “be famous”, “succeed with my music”. It’s really vague and hard to wrap your head around. Right? And that can be arresting for a musician. I mean having a goal that’s that big and that vague, you don’t really know how to start or how to achieve it.

Something we really focus on a lot, one of our core kind of learning concepts is making sure that we’re creating really highly deliberate learning plans for every student that takes their big goal and breaks it up into achievable small steps with kind of interim milestones that they can actually achieve.

I guess a really good example for that would be — we’ve had a number of students come to us who want to have their music in sync licensing live. Right? Have their music be on commercials and stuff. But they have no idea how to get there. That’s just their goal but they don’t know what they’re doing. So, we work with them. We figure out where the music is now, and we say “Okay. We need to–. Truthfully, your composition needs a little bit of work, your production needs a little bit of work. And then we’ll work with you once we’ve gotten through those things to figure out how to approach an actual library.”

And so, we go step by step through those different things. The first month might be creating a sound alike of another track that is already on TV or has already been licensed and we’ll focus on the mixing, we’ll focus on tweaking the sound design, and just make sure that she or he is really able to achieve that. And then the next one will be focusing in on some other aspect of that track and just taking those really small steps. I think that’s kind of the biggest picture thing — is getting really focused and deliberate in how you approach your big goals.

David: I like that because I was a guitar teacher for over a decade. One of the things I tried to do away with was a standardized music curriculum. Instead, I tried to customize it for each student as challenging as that was because I must have had hundreds of students over the years. But I thought that was such a valuable thing to be able to do for people. And even though the enthusiasm level didn’t necessarily change for some students, I think others found tremendous value in being able to learn things like Green Day or Blink182 as one of their favorite groups over trying to grow through this book that was like really painful, you know one string at a time.

Ian: Totally.

David: And reading notes and sight reading the whole works.

Ian: Yeah, that’s one of the interesting challenges is that so many–. I love learning and how people learn. That’s kind of what we obsess about here at Soundfly. The interesting thing is that people learn in really different ways. To have that ability to personalize an approach for how this specific student depending on what their goals are, I think is really that valuable. I mean you see a lot of research actually supporting that now in the field as well.

David: One thing I think about with different styles of learning is generally trying to provide three types of content and this is super challenging when you’re both basically like a solopreneur with a couple of contractors working for you. It is creating video, audio, and text.

Ian: Yeah.

David: You can sort of repurpose it all, right. You can take your video. You can transcribe it. You can strip the audio, make it into a podcast or something like that. It’s time consuming but I think it is one way of catering to different learning styles. What are your thoughts?

Ian: Yeah, definitely. That’s a great–. Yeah. Yeah. I agree 100% there. I’m trying to think. There was one model we looked at when we’re starting Soundfly. It might have been of Rosetta Stone, that language learning software. They always provide for everything you’re teaching. Like you speak it, you hear it, you read it, you see it. I mean it’s really just those multiple elements. I think that’s really great.

I think the other thing that I would just add to that is that one of our big goals at Soundfly is that everyone should not just consume our content. That every piece of content we make should inspire action. Because really you can read and watch and listen to stuff all day and that’s great and you will learn new perspectives and you’ll hear a bunch of great stuff, but it really requires taking some action to make sure that learning sticks and last long term.

It’s the difference between what’s called passive learning and just kind of sitting in a… Let’s say the best example might be like sitting in a college lecture and active learning which is actually taking the concepts you just learned and figuring out some concrete way to just practice it. That could be just, you know maybe someone listens to your podcast and you’re doing an episode on marketing, and at the end of the podcast they challenge themselves to try to use one little piece of knowledge that they learned in your podcast for their own career that day. Maybe it’s 20 minutes rewrite your bio. Maybe it’s 30 minutes come up with a new social media plan for the rest of the week, or something like that. But getting that active piece of it is really important as well.

David: You know I’m also a ghost writer. I’ve written on a variety of topics. One of them is actually eLearning. In that industry, one thing they continually talk about is the ability to do self-directed learning. I think that’s partly what you’re talking about is like it’s not learning in front of an instructor or classroom kind of setting, it’s about finding that internal motivation and then taking at your own pace and your convenience.

Ian: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean I love that. We all kind of come with different degrees of being able to do that you know. I don’t know about you but sometimes I’m like really motivated. For two months I’ll just be like you know doing tons of stuff every week and learning at a really fast clip. And then other times I’m less motivated. That’s kind of actually part of the thinking behind why we provide mentors as a core part of our service at Soundfly. Our model really revolves around–. We like to call it a personal trainer but for your music. That is because we all face some of those challenges with accountability with self-directed learning where you don’t always know, or you lose motivation a little bit. And just having someone who can kind of check in with you in a weekly basis and help make sure you’re clear on what your goal is for the week and check in with you at the end of the week to say, “How’s it going?” and give you like in-depth feedback on whatever it is you’re doing. That’s kind of the core value that we think we provide students and something that we’ve seen can have a big impact.

David: That’s something I want to dig deeper into but just one thing I wanted to say beforehand was I recently moved, and I was able to drop a lot of baggage around perfectionism so I’m going through one of those periods of just creating and linking a lot of stuff.

Ian: That’s amazing.

David: And just got a lot of clarity of mind to do that so that’s been awesome.

Ian: Congrats. Seize it when you’ve got it. Right?

David: Pretty much you have to.

Ian: Yeah. Yeah.

David: Yeah. So, it sounds like one of the primary value propositions is mentorship and accountability which I like a lot, and that’s something I had when I was at network marketing. I don’t look upon those days necessarily fondly, but I like the fact that there were people guiding me and showing me the way. So, are you finding that your students get drastically different results from those who don’t have access to the same resources?

Ian: Yes. To put it simply, we love our free courses and our free articles. Obviously, accessibility is so important and so we want to make sure we always provide those things but didn’t… You know it was a test we ran last year honestly. We tried a bunch of different approaches to helping our students learn. We tried like groups. We had like office hours in courses. We had just different kind of mechanisms of accountability and then we tried this personalized mentor thing where every student got a personalized mentor to work with them through a specific kind of [unclear 00:13:58] request content. And the ones with the mentor just… First of all, they just had like an incredible way better experience and saying they came out vastly improved. They did all the work. They came out of the course with six new pieces of music to add to their portfolio whereas the others maybe had one.

That was really gratifying. That kind of prompted us to develop this whole model is because we’ve just seen that the value of having this person who can both hold you accountable as you point out but also give you feedback on your work, answer your questions, and help structure a learning plan. As I said earlier kind of like that’s another big part of it where like if you have a really big goal that learning plan that helps you just say “Okay. But this week, just write a melody. Just write a simple melody.” Believe it or not that’s going to get you closer to your goal of writing that hit song. And then they work with you through that. So, yeah. We’ve definitely seen a big impact. And we have a bunch of students now who just come back to us every month to work with either the same mentor or a different mentor.

David: There you go. Coaching makes a difference. I really believe in that especially since I’m thinking about wanting a membership component to my website where people can access one on one in a forum, right. And so, it’s good for people to hear that.

Now, I am going to get into some more business and personal questions, but it definitely speaks from your place of passion of learning, if applicable. Of any industry, music might be one of the toughest to succeed in today. so why create a business serving artists?

Ian: That’s a great question. You sound like my dad.

David: Oh no.

Ian: No, I’m just joking. He’s super supportive. But you know I think most of us are in music because some part of it really speaks to us. I think it’s really interesting because that can be different things for different people. Some people just get that night shift performing on stage. Some people love sitting in a room and composing on a computer. Some people just love the act of expression. Some people love just hearing music and could listen to it all day.

I think for me personally, I think music… helping people express themselves in music is so much more than just helping people express themselves in music. There’s so many ancillary benefits to that as well. It comes from increased… I mean it breeds increased confidence. It helps people discover their voice. What I mean by that is like their actual unique voice, what they have to give to the world. Right?

There’s a lot of cynicism and like people being kind of ironic in the music industry and stuff like that but at the end of the day I think about music less as a career or as like a money-making thing. I mean that’s important. That’s great. But it really is to me about just helping people discover and explore and share their personal voice and all the impact that that can have both on themselves and on the world around them. It’s certainly a much more beautiful and impactful way to share your voice in the world than trolling on Facebook or you know whatever else some people may choose to express themselves in.

I think that’s for me why. I come from a [safe 00:18:07] place. I’m just trying throughout my career. Everything I have done for the past 10 years to support people in a kind of self-actualizing their dreams or goals and I think music just hit a nerve. It’s like a really powerful way to do that. Yeah.

David: It’s true. Music has provided so much inspiration and confidence and career opportunities and different vignettes for me than I have the opportunity to explore. And even as I look back, when I was 14 I started my first website and it was an anti Hanson website. So, even though I wasn’t…

Ian: Yeah. That’s amazing.

David: Even though I wasn’t really making music yet. I think I was just beginning the process of like practicing writing lyrics and things like that. I was already writing about music. And again, you know I grew up in Japan so my fluency in English at the time wasn’t very good and the stuff I was writing wasn’t very good either. I just kind of got started and got going.

Ian: Yeah, that’s amazing. I love that.

David: And the fact that there’s some connection to music even back then is kind of funny to me but you know once I picked up the guitar and started performing… Really performance is one of the things that I love most and gave me the biggest rush which is why you know.

I began to see the broader side of music entrepreneurship and how that can help musicians think about their careers differently and approach it from an empowering perspective rather than a defeatist perspective. That’s when I knew I had something that I needed to share with the world.

Ian: Very cool. Yeah. I mean it’s another thing, just to share very quickly, I think my… So, this is my second company I’m starting. Before this I started a non-profit with some friends.

David: I’ve read about that.

Ian: And that’s still going, doing very well. It’s called The Future Project. It does amazing work in high schools and just incredible team of people. But my first experience in leadership, my first experience as an… And the first thing that told me that I’d like to start projects was music related. Right? It was having bands and trying to be the “CEO” of a musical project and push that forward. So that’s really interesting as well the way that music gave me the like love of you know starting projects and seeing them you know go out into the world.

David: You know what you said prompted a different question or train of thought. I want to ask what’s the biggest lesson you’ve learned about leadership?

Ian: Could I ask what leadership? What element of leadership? Is there specific you know?

David: I think as far as being an entrepreneur, we have to lead by example. We have to be the visionaries. Sometimes we have to cover basically every other aspect of a business from accounting all the way over to admin and stuff that’s well below our pay grade. Right?

Ian: Yeah.

David: I’m just wondering like in leading people and your employees or team members and so forth, what was the biggest leadership lesson for you?

Ian: That’s such a great question. You’re going to make me like go have an existential crisis. What is the biggest lesson I learned about leadership? I think the biggest lesson I’ve learned about starting a company would be just the idea of how can you know more 30 days from today than you know now? That idea of just testing, pushing, trying things, figuring out what your audience likes, figuring out what you like. That idea of just finding the shortest path to test your propositions and learn. Learn by doing. It’s a theme.

That’s one element maybe of leadership but it’s kind of a little bit tangential. In terms of actual leadership, I think as a leader I have this constant dialogue going with myself around what are the most important characteristics. And as you pointed out, I think I’ve always been someone who tries to lead by example more than lead by dictation. Struggling to come to terms of that when you’re running a team or working with a team of people and think about how to provide that example and think about exactly what you should be spending your time on is something that I’m still struggling with and it’s kind of a constant daily reflection. What should I really be doing today versus what should my team be doing and are they set up for success to do those other things?

David: Actually, I think the first thing you touched on is also very much connected to leadership because it starts with you. So, if you don’t know yourself and invests in your personal growth and you expect others to do the same, you can’t really get anywhere, can you? Because it’s example that they’re following.

Ian: Oh, yeah definitely. It’s often the case as well that our greatest strengths as individuals also contain within them some of our greatest flaws. I think that that is all tied together in this because I know that one of my greatest strengths is just getting stuff done. How can I learn more 30 days from now than I do today? I just do something, do a test, get it done, and do it really well. But wrapped up in that is certainly one of my greatest flaws that when I struggle to know how to approach something, I’ll just do it myself. That’s not always the best thing when you have a team or when you have a big project to undertake. You need to share some of that ownership in that activity.

David: No, I’m laughing because that’s pretty much the exact conversation I had last night about leadership and example.

Ian: Amazing.

David: Yeah. It hits home for sure.

Ian: Yeah, it hits home. Yes. It’s a nightly conversation for me too. So, maybe we’ll just have to call each other up every night. How did you do today man?

David: There you go. Mastermind, right?

Ian: Yeah.

David: There’s accountability in motion. I have my path answer down to this question. I’m curious to see what you’ll say. We are in the Information Age and knowledge is becoming commoditized. How do you build interest in your business when one of the main things you offer is educational content?

Ian: Yes. So, this is actually a really good question for me because I think our journey up to this point in the last couple years has been one of discovering how we can truly deliver value. One of the key discoveries there in kind of pouring over research and reading books and testing things in our own business is that a lot of the online earning platforms that currently exist focus on the wrong things, to tell you the truth.

And that’s in some ways what you’re talking about is that the internet was built for knowledge dissemination and information dissemination and that’s fantastic. We all know what a revolution that’s cause then, but too many people out there are confusing knowledge dissemination with learning. There’s a difference. There’s a lot of research to back this up that you know once again just like reading articles online you might feel satisfying, you might feel good in the moment, you might pick up a tidbit but if you’re not practicing active learning and you’re not doing something with that knowledge you’re getting then you’re not really learning in the long term.

We’ve drawn a lot from two books in particular. One by a guy named Anders Ericsson called Peak. This is the researcher who provided the foundations for Malcolm Gladwell’s Ten-Thousand-hour rule. Although he kind of argues with that rule. He thinks Malcolm Gladwell kind of mis represented a couple things but still his research is really interesting and it’s all about the best learning happens at the edge of your comfort zone. You need to push yourself. If something doesn’t feel difficult then you’re probably not kind of learning for the long term.

There’s another great book called Make It Stick by a trio of researchers that I can share with you afterwards if you want to share it with your community. The word they used is desirable difficulties. It’s that idea that you yeah it needs to be effortful in order to learn. And so, we’ve structured our whole model around this idea of active learning and trying to inspire people to take offline action because that’s how they’re going to learn long term and that’s why our we have our mentor system and that’s why we’ve experimented and tested and honed in on this mentor system to try and maximize the chances that you will not only learn something but take action on it, get feedback on it, push yourself outside your comfort zone, and consequently take much bigger strides in your learning than you might on some other kind of online learning site.

David: Application is the wisdom, right.

Ian: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

David: One of the things I’ve been trying this year a little bit is reading my coach’s book which is Work Less Make More by James Franco.

Ian: Oh, awesome.

David: Yeah. And I’m going “I love what’s in here but for me to apply it and really understand it might take multiple readings.” So, my thought process was maybe I could push myself to read it once per month. Keep going back to it until I absorb the information and put it into practice and then move to the next resource as opposed to constantly looking up something new.

Ian: That’s a good idea. If you want to take that one step further of one thing I might suggest would be even to try to — without opening the book — try to summarize some of the key ideas of the book on a piece of paper one month. So, one month read it or go back to it. The next month try and summarize the key ideas from it. And in doing so you’re going to practice what’s called recall and that’s very very powerful for strengthening its impact on you. And then go back to it again afterwards and see what you got right and what other things you could pick up, and then try it again and keep practicing that recall. That could even help kind of make it even deeper, make it stick longer.

David: I like that. Thanks for suggesting that. I can see your passion coming through for learning for sure.

Ian: Yeah. Sorry to jump in. I shouldn’t be…

David: Not at all.

Ian: Putting things out there. But that’s great, I love it. I love what you’re saying.

David: I appreciate the suggestion so I’m going to try that. And so, you’ve been warned. I know this can be a bit of a tough and risky question but I’m going to ask anyway. You can give me whatever answer you like. How do you market your business and what channels have you had the most success with?

Ian: Yeah. That’s a really good question. I’m happy to talk about it because I am learning every day about this.

David: Excellent.

Ian: Yeah. Marketing is so interesting. There are so many different approaches and there are so many different aspects to it and angles to it. I’m laughing because I’m thinking back to this guy that we interviewed two years ago that we made a You Tube video with him for our touring on a shoestring course. We asked him a question very similar to that about like you know how should musicians market their craft or whatever. His answer was this is like a… He’s one of the managers of the Possum Rouge, a big venue in New York City. He’s like “Artists just need to do market.” On the team we always bring that up because it’s like the funniest thing. Right? He just said it like that was his whole answer. It hasn’t been that useful obviously, but it is a starting point at least.

Marketing encompasses so much that trying to wrap my head around it is like I’m focusing on a different thing every month and trying to learn. So, the big things we’ve learned about marketing Soundfly is that the core activity that we need to do is to create individual trust with our community of the people who come to our site. We’ve explored lots of different marketing channels. Obviously, the daily articles that we publish are a big part of that. I mean that drives a ton of traffic to our site. We post those on Facebook and send them around to relevant people and kind of do some of your classic social media marketing with those. But once people come to that site and once people have seen those articles or encountered Soundfly for the first time our goal from that point on is just to give them a reason to try us. We’re asking them for a decent chunk of money to join. Our mentor model is not cheap to run so we have to charge a decent amount of money. Mixing courses cost $499 each so everything we do from that point on is just trying to build trust. We’ve done various things. We started doing Facebook live events and that’s great because it gives people a chance to see that we’re humans, we are real people. And that’s so important to our model. All the mentors are humans, so people need to understand and know that we are very human. And trustworthy in that way.

We ask everyone who comes to our site. We immediately try and reach out to them through automated channels at this point kind of intercom more or other things because we just have such a volume of people. But we ask them, how can we help you? What are you trying to learn? And if someone responds to those emails, we will spend the time regardless of whether it’s with us or not, trying to help that person take a step forward in their goal because that’s just so important to us in terms of building trust. So, for our business really right now everything we’re trying to do and think about is just activities that can build our credibility and increase our trust with our audience.

David: Basically, if I were to boil it down, I think one of the things you’re talking about there is content marketing which is one of the things that actually makes my heart beat because here I am making a podcast and it takes time, it takes effort, takes resources to do but part of it is I enjoy it and the other part is it’s building trust with the people I come in contact with. Any number of my pockets episodes or just one of them could connect with somebody and then they go “Who is this guy? What does he have to offer?” It is an incredible way to build trust these days.

Ian: Yeah, absolutely. And it comes with its challenges I’m sure as you know as well, which is there’s so–. As you’ve said before earlier in the show there’s so much content out there so how do you offer an interesting take on a subject or how do you offer an angle that hasn’t been already covered and covered and covered again?

David: Exactly. And I mean, one of my top blog posts, it’s weird but, it’s six things I learned from the power of your subconscious mind by Joseph Murphy. So basically, a book review. And it just continues to get hundreds of views every single day.

Ian: That’s amazing.

David: I know. It’s interesting. And mindset being a very important thing. I don’t mind covering it on the blog. It’s just more so fascinating that that’s the thing that drives a lot of traffic to my site.

Ian: Yeah. I think one of our biggest articles to date was called something like Erik Sattie is so much weirder than you realized. We’re like “Wait a second.” Like Eric Sattie being a French turn of the century composer slightly minimalist and like who knew that there was a pocket of the internet out there that was just desperate to learn about how weird this turn of the century French composer was. You know what I mean? It would be just like the strangest thing, but you know I mean I guess those Erik Sattie real music nerds out there felt a little bit underserved and we gave them something that was interesting. That article we use to get great traffic.

David: Yeah. Basically, you just never know. Keep at it.

Ian: Yeah, exactly. Keep at it and I guess you know test. Try lots of things to find those angles where you’re doing something really different.

David: Only believe in that. I know you’ve done quite a bit of recording and touring yourself, so I’d like you to share two or three highlights from your career and what you learned from those experiences.

Ian: Oh, that’s a good question. Sometimes it’s kind of hard to go too far back so I’ll use recent examples. Let’s see. What’s a big highlight? Well, recently my trio which is kind of a slightly experimental modern classical to some degree inspired by some of the minimalist composer’s trio called Sontag Showground and our most recent album got us our first pitchfork review so that was a nice milestone in my career. Some of the things that really stand out to me o some of the shows we’ve played though I think was two or three years ago we played this show in France in a barn in the countryside over by like Flanders area on the Belgian border which like the landscape there is just littered with memorials to the World War I dead. You could just almost like feel the ghosts around you. There is very misty and rolling hills. Even some kind of areas pockmarked landscapes where you’re still not allowed to go because there might be still active debris from World War I there.

We played this show in the basement of this barn that was kind of a 300 to 400-year-old barn. That basement was also used by the French resistance in World War II to hide people fleeing the Holocaust. So, the setting was just like imbued with power. Right? It was a small audience but packed, you know the space. It’s just one of those shows that’s just so memorable and always sticks with you. The people who are hosting it were just so nice and excited about what we’re doing. We transitioned from our performance into a dance party for the rest of the night. Everything went exactly right. I think so many of my real highlights as a musician are those shows where just everything goes right.

David: Love it. Glad to hear about that. What are some of the biggest struggles you’ve encountered as an entrepreneur?

Ian: I suppose it’s just the struggle, the overarching… The one. The one struggle to end all struggles which is how do we achieve that growth that will allow us to continue to do what we love and continue to deliver impact to the world. Right? And that’s the big thing that keeps me up at night and I think about in the morning. Today, how are we going to take that next step that will continue to allow us to grow as a business and continue to deliver the impact that we know we can deliver?

David: I like it because I think your answer will be similar to mine where a lot of people would go: Step one, find a need. Step two, fill it. I basically have a step three which is be fulfilled in the process.

Ian: Right. Yeah.

David: Because if you don’t enjoy the journey what’s the destination going to look like?

Ian: Yeah, for sure.

David: Yeah. On the flip side, what are some of the biggest victories you’ve experienced as an entrepreneur?

Ian: I think that for all of us on the Soundfly team the victories at the moment are the individual stories. It’s awesome to site like some numbers. Like “oh we had 50% growth last month” or we’ve reached this milestone of however many million people visited our site last year and that’s great. Like that’s exciting but it’s when we see a specific student grew – and we each have a couple of students in our mind on the team who we’ve interacted with or seen through our mentor programs who just have really killed it in part through our involvement. We have this incredible student that we’ve worked with now for most of the last year and she even helped give us feedback that helped lead to our current model. She came in. She teaches I think elementary school in Wisconsin or somewhere in the Midwest and studied music education in college, but she really wants to like keep her own music going and not lose that while she’s working on Do-re-mi. Just over the past year she’s just become the incredible producer. I mean she’s just like you know… We showed her music to a bunch of like Berkeley grad producers recently and they’re like “Oh my God” you know. They were like making fun of each other like “You don’t make music this good.” That’s just so awesome and so exciting. I can’t wait for her. She’s working on her first EP I believe now, and I can’t wait for that to come out.

We’ve had a couple different stories like that working with a student. We worked with someone on writing music to picture last summer and at the end of it he got his first ever job writing to picture right at the end of the month of working with us. We’re like “Yes!” I mean that’s exactly why we do this. So, that’s kind of the easy answer to that is it’s just all about hearing that music that the students are creating and hearing stories of them taking steps forward.

David: Yeah. I agree with you. I think that maybe the number one thing is the difference you make. Right? That’s really exciting. And then number two, although I have not experienced this myself is when your team members come up with a crazy innovative solution that you would have never come up with. That’s also very gratifying experience.

Ian: Oh yeah, that’s a good one too.  I agree.

David: Are there any books that have helped to you on your journey? And if not, any blogs or podcasts that have?

Ian: Absolutely. So, I mentioned two of them already. I can send them to you. One is called Peak: Secrets from the New Science of Expertise, I think or something like that. It’s called Peak. It’s by Anders Ericsson. It’s about how we should practice and learn and be deliberate in our learning strategies as music–. Well, not specifically as musicians. In everything we do in life. But it I found it really resonant as a musician.

The other one is Make It Stick which is a fantastic just… Basically overview of some of the science of affective learning from the past kind of 20-30 years. Another interesting thing is that a lot of what we’re learning now builds on things that John Dewey was writing about a hundred years ago. And so, if anyone’s really interested in learning in education, they can go back and read some of his books and writings from around 1900 and he really started to come up with a lot of ideas around personalized education and stuff like that.

In terms of business specific books because those are all really focused on learning which is where a lot of my passion lies as we’ve talked about. I think there are two books that I come back to a lot. The first one is–. Actually, I should say three books but two of them are by the same author and could maybe be kind of consider one singular idea. That’s Built to Last and Good to Great books.

David: Yes.

Ian: You know those ones?

David: I sure do.

Ian: Yeah. I mean just the idea as someone who started his career in non-profit and… I always wanted to be… Like back in college I was convinced I was going to be like a humanitarian worker like out in the world, out in some combat zone. I’ve always been driven by purpose more than – I don’t know, profit let’s say – I don’t think that’s a dichotomy but just for simplicity sake.

Realizing that you can build a business based on values and mission. It’s more effective to build a clock and tell time, which are kind of the examples they use a lot in the books. The argument of the books is that the most successful long term businesses are the ones that know clearly why they exist and have that encoded into a series of structures for the entire team that ensures that the core values and the core mission and the core why of the business continues to drive everything you do. I just love that idea. Obviously, there’s more to it. You might be able to expand on it more but that idea is always stuck with me.

Then just the other book is Creativity Inc by one of the Pixar founders. It is just a really fun book about an approach to leadership that really resonated with me, which is the low key. It’s structure building. It’s about listening. It’s about creating a really honest and impactful culture within your team no matter what project you’re working on.

David: In episode 73 of the podcast, I talked to DeCarlos Garrison and he shared something similar about… We didn’t really start this as a business. We started this as something to help musicians and help artists.

Ian: Yes.

David: yeah. That’s a great teaching point. If you go after the money, it may not be there. But if you provide value, then in a way money will just chase you down.

Ian: Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that wholeheartedly. I learned so much from some of these… The people I started the last business with, the cofounders of future project who were so agnostic about methods and deliberate and authoritarian even about like purpose. Right? So like, we know why we’re doing this and we’re going to stick to that why. But in terms of whether we’re a non-profit or a business, whether we make money, whether we get donations, or whether we get big donations, whether we get small donation. I mean who cares? We just need to figure out which one works. As long as it allows us to keep addressing our why. That was really powerful for me. I think we’re still kind of taking that thought. I’m still taking that thought with me and kind of you know who cares about the method as long as we can discover a driver that will allow us to continue to deliver the impact we want to have.

Ideally, that driver lines up with the impact we have so we’re able to deliver musicians an incredibly high value service and they pay us for it. But there might be other methods down the road. Maybe we decide it’s better actually to become a non-profit and ask for 3-8 million dollar donations a year and that works for us. You know what I mean? The method doesn’t matter as much as the how come.

David: It’s such a great perspective. Definitely hits home. Good reminder for me too. This is the portion where we get to geek out a little bit. So, what tools and apps are you using to run your business?

Ian: Good question. Probably, Slack is the big one. Most of our team is remote so we are on Slack religiously. We try and use it as a way to deliver extra value to our students as well. Students in our mentorship programs are around Slack asking us questions and stuff like that. It’s just a great communication tool.

Other apps that I used to run… Well, I don’t know. I mean they probably go through our subscriptions list. I design in sketch and illustrator. We use Premiere to edit our videos. I don’t even know. I can’t remember. Lots of apps. Yeah.

David: I hear you. Slack is a big one for a lot of people. Well, this has been a fantastic conversation. Is there anything else I should have asked?

Ian: I don’t know. I think that that’s probably… I think I’ve certainly talked enough. I’ve said everything I’ve probably meant to say but it’s been really great chatting with you.

David: Yes. Thank you so much for joining me today and for your generosity in sharing.

Ian: Yeah. Thanks for having me. It’s really really great to chat.

David: Absolutely.

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