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Are you having trouble connecting with the world around you? Are you having drab and boring conversations? Do you wish you could connect more effortlessly with the people around you?

Communication is one of the most crucial skills you can learn, and sad to say, formal education doesn’t do much to support you on that journey.

In this installment of Spark Infinity Office Hours, David shares time-tested methods for having better conversations. Later, Jody joins David to unpack the conversation further.

Sponsors:

• Productivity, Performance & Profits Blackbook: Get a free copy of the “Definitive Guide to Productivity for Artists and Entrepreneurs.”
• The Renegade Musician: David’s magnum opus on building an independent music career is here!

Highlights:

00:17 – How this topic was chosen
01:14 – What’s the goal of this presentation?
01:29 – Set an intention for the conversation
02:41 – Introduce yourself
03:47 – Learn the FORM
06:43 – Do your homework
07:57 – Tune into WIIFM
08:46 – Ask more questions (and listen)
09:49 – Find common ground
11:02 – Learn something about everything
12:23 – Become a journalist
13:19 – Ask for what you want
15:37 – Be spontaneous and/or funny
16:15 – Additional resources
17:26 – Next steps
17:50 – Group discussion

Transcript:

David: We are talking about 10 ways to better conversation, which already sounds ridiculous, bad wording and all. This is something I just found out the other day. So YouTube literally tells you what it thinks your channel is about, what your audience is searching for, and the types of content it expects you to be creating.

So it suggested 10 ways to better conversation. It’s one of many topics it brought to the table for my channel. So yeah, the phrasing is awkward, but I like the topic, so I am running with it.

And I do reject some of its suggestions because they’re just kind of way out there. However, Spark Infinity is all about social media growth. So my thought process is if we can cater to the algorithm and give it what it’s expecting, maybe we can improve our results.

And we might as well do that and test it for ourselves to see if that’s the case. Obviously in Spark Infinity, just for anybody new that might be coming along to watch this, we’re focused on social media growth. So we are mostly going to be looking at how to interact with others online today.

But much of what we’ll cover can be brought out into the real world as well. What’s the goal? What are we aiming for here?

In an earlier presentation on what’s the point of social media, we determined that establishing connections is one of the reasons to be using social media in the first place. So let’s use these tips. Let’s get better at having conversations that matter.

Number one is set an intention. Many conversations suffer for lack of intention. If you don’t know why you’re calling someone in the first place, you’re basically just hoping that something will magically happen.

And yes, sometimes it does. I’ve had spontaneous conversations like that. But you will get better results if you know why you’re contacting someone in the first place.

So ask yourself, why am I contacting them? What am I going to talk to them about? What do I want to get out of the conversation?

I don’t want to put too fine a point on it. We don’t want to overthink this. It’s not about analysis paralysis, but take a moment, take a breath and think about these questions before contacting anyone.

Examples. You might be contacting someone to congratulate them on their new book, to ask for a shout out, to assess the suitability or their suitability as a client. That would be like a pitching or quote calling example, to request help with a project, to invite them to an event. Those are just a few examples.

So key lesson here is always set an intention, not an agenda for the conversation you’re about to have. Agendas are for meetings. Intentions are for conversations.

And this will help cut down on meandering conversations that don’t go anywhere and increase your chances of having a conversation with desired results. Number two, introduce yourself. OK, so it’s my observation that many millennials have found an odd, non sequitur way of communicating with each other.

There’s no hello. Oftentimes there’s no my name is the classic Tai Lopez ad. Come to comes to mind before he even introduces himself or you even know what he’s talking about.

He just says something about knowledge while showing off a Lamborghini in the background. Well, thanks, Tai. But this non sequitur way of communicating is annoying and really doesn’t work in reality.

Generation Z or Generation Z is being raised on smart devices and is often clueless about interacting with the world around them. I am not criticizing Gen Z. I appreciate Gen Z, but we do need to pass some things on to them so that they can be better in the real world.

So being a digital native has both pros and cons. Key lesson, unless you know the person you’re talking to, briefly introduce yourself and keep it short. Name and title is often enough.

And in some cases you don’t even need the title. Never take it for granted that people know who you are or don’t care enough to know. So make sure you’re respecting yourself and others by introducing yourself.

Number three, learn the form. When getting to know someone, it’s important to lean on a tried and true framework so you don’t run out of things to say. The form framework, F-O-R-M, is taught in virtually every networking organization.

And as it demonstrates, and as you’ll see, open ended questions allow for conversation to unfold in a natural, friendly manner. F stands for family. Here’s an example of a question that is not going to work too well.

Tell me about your family. What does everyone do? How old are they and what they like to do in their spare time?

You’re asking multiple layered questions. It’s a little creepy that you’re asking me so much up front. That question is no good.

Here’s one that works. Where are you from? It seems like an odd connection.

How does that tie into family? Don’t worry about it. Just ask, where are you from?

It’ll lead into all that. O stands for occupation. Try not to ask, what is your job role at the company and annual salary?

People don’t often like to talk about what their income is upon first meeting you. And you’re asking a lot of specifics again, that might lead them to believe you’re stalking them or something like that. Simply ask, what do you do?

And people are free to answer that question however they want. One thing, by the way, I noticed this in Calgary a lot. People are preoccupied with that question.

What do you do? So they can size you up, categorize you and decide whether you’re worth interacting with, just putting that out there. Don’t do that.

R stands for recreation. Here’s a couple of examples above what’s not going to work too well. Hey, you’re in great shape.

What do you do? Swim? That’s pretty creepy and pretty forward.

Do you have any hobbies or anything? That sounds pretty uncertain. A lot of people don’t have hobbies or passions that are ashamed to that they don’t, so it’s not a great question for R.

What we do want to ask is what do you like to do in your spare time or off days? People usually can identify a thing or two, even if it’s just sitting in the park or catching some sunrise that they are happy to talk about. And then M, M stands for message.

I would say there isn’t always a message to deliver, but oftentimes there is. Thing not to do unless the conversation is leading here. You’re such a great conversationalist.

You would do so great in my multi-level marketing company. Join me. I think we’ve all been approached.

And if you’re 25 and under and haven’t been approached yet, trust me, you will. At some point, somebody is going to talk about a business opportunity and I’m not saying join. I’m not saying don’t join.

It’s up to you. And some of those opportunities are pretty great. I learned a lot as a network marketer.

However, this may really not be the time or place to, especially if you’re just getting to know someone, drop a message like that, a better approach is it’s been great chatting with you. Are you on Instagram nowadays? It seems people are far more likely to exchange their Instagram information before a phone number.

Of course, if you’re online, you may already be interacting on Instagram. So you might have a different message. So if the only thing you take away from today’s entire discussion is forum, you will be miles ahead of mouse and having better conversations.

Key lesson forum offers a solid foundation for the initial stages of getting to know anyone. Number four, do your homework. It’s very easy to learn a few things about someone before contacting them.

Especially if they’ve got an online presence, it takes five to 10 minutes, maybe 15 to 20 minutes on a bad day. We’re not trying to creep on them. We’re not trying to find about their life story or their personal info on Facebook or any of that.

It’s just learning a thing or two about the people you’re about to talk to. But most people don’t do this and it’s gets to be really tacky and lazy. If you’re pitching or trying to sell someone on an idea and let’s face it, you’re always selling yourself in every context, not knowing anything about them will negatively impact your conversion rates, and this is where it gets really bad is failing to learn about public figures and entrepreneurs before approaching them is generally in bad form.

And don’t be surprised if you get pushed back or aren’t responded to. Here’s the thing, right? I’ve got lots of content online.

I’ve got books, I’ve got music. It doesn’t take that long to learn about me, nor does it take very long to learn about the kinds of things that I’m sharing with the world or promoting right now. So you really should have an idea of who you’re talking to before you get into the depths, a good question to ask yourself, how can I add value to this person?

And we’ll get into that later as well. So key lesson, learn what you can about someone before approaching them. It will increase your chances of creating a better rapport.

Five, tune into WIIFM. Everyone is tuned into WIIFM. What’s that frequency?

It is what’s in it for me, WIIFM. Asking for what you want is key to getting what you want. And we’ll talk about that later.

But if you can’t bring anything to the table for others, it’s unlikely they will respond to you favorably. Your conversations will improve if you put your focus on the people you’re talking to, rather than on yourself. If you’ve done your homework, you should have identified one or two things.

The person in question is working on right now, or is interested in. Maybe they’re, maybe they’re promoting their book. Maybe they’re trying to get more clients.

Maybe they’re looking for their soulmate. If you know that about them, then consider how you can help them reach their goals and make that your reason for contacting them. Key lesson when approaching another person, it’s not about what you want.

It’s about what they want. Number six, ask more questions and listen. We have two ears and one mouth, and we should use them proportionately.

Says Susan Cain. I would attribute that quote to Kevin Trudeau. That’s where I first heard it.

But either way, I have a mentor who is amazing at keeping a conversation going simply by tuning into what matters to the person he’s talking to and sympathizing with them. If they say they’re going to school, he asks more questions about, Oh, that’s interesting, what are you studying in school? And he’ll keep the conversation going that way.

If you listen to people, the things that matter to them always comes through in their speech. It’s the same with text messages and emails. You can begin to detect that.

If you make a habit of listening to people, they will always come away saying, wow, this was such a great conversation, even if you don’t feel like you contributed much. If you don’t listen well, of course you can’t expect that reaction. So key listening, listening and or paying attention will make you a better communicator.

It will tip you off to relevant and insightful questions. The other person may not have even thought of people will like you more, feel safer around you and have those good feelings associated with you. Number seven, find common ground.

I’m going to offer the example of a relationship here, but it doesn’t have to be within the context of a personal relationship. I just think there’s an important discovery here. So in a long-term relationship, it’s not uncommon for attraction among partners to dissipate.

It doesn’t have to happen that way, but one of the best ways to keep the relationship going and keep it interesting is by finding common ground, shared interests, hobbies or activities that excite both parties, shared values is really key. So no matter who you’re talking to, finding common ground will create a stronger bond. You don’t have to ask these questions, but keeping them in the back of your mind could prove helpful.

Where did you grow up? Where did you go to school? What hobbies or activities do you enjoy?

What kind of music do you like? Do you enjoy food? And if so, what dish or cuisine do you like eating most?

What is your faith or belief system? That can sometimes be a sticking point with people. But my suggestion is if you don’t agree, just move on from that topic.

Or do you have any contacts or friends in common? Cause that can sometimes be a point of connection. Key lesson.

Conversations will tend to unfold more easily if you’re intentional about finding common ground. Shared experiences create a closer connection. Number eight, learn a little bit about everything.

This is something we can do for ourselves at times. And in certain situations, we’ve all felt like a fish out of water. One time I went down to, to downtown Calgary at somewhat of a prestigious clubhouse to learn about an investment opportunity, funny story.

I wore jeans to a place you have to wear. Suit pants and, uh, got, well, didn’t get in trouble, but kind of got reprimanded after. At first, I didn’t feel like I could connect with anyone there, but then I realized, hold on.

I’m a ghostwriter and I know about a broad range of topics, including investments. So even curse cursory knowledge of the topic should be enough for me to be able to hold a conversation in this environment. And I was right.

So I realized I could tap into my vast database of knowledge again, even if cursory, even if just a little bit to carry on conversations in just about any situation, I know something about music, creativity, entrepreneurship, marketing. Investing real estate, insurance, mortgages, computers, the internet, AI, and a whole lot more. We’d be here all day.

Key lesson as creators, we often feel the pressure to learn only what’s relevant to our field and to stay in our lane, but for the purposes of having better conversations, it’s a good idea to spend 30 minutes to an hour per day, exposing yourself to topics. You don’t know anything about, so you’ll always have something to add to casual conversation. And you will be surprised how fast you can learn about different topics.

Number nine, become a journalist. And I’m not talking about going to school here in my most awkward phase of life, holding a conversation with strangers or people I barely knew felt like a massive chore. But I had a realization again, hold on.

I’ve been interviewing people for years now. I bet if I tapped into those skills and began asking more questions of others, as if I was keenly interested in their lives, I would become a better conversationalist. And again, I was right.

It did help me carry on in conversation. Of course you can ask questions to the point of being intrusive, annoying, or creepy. So you want to be aware of that.

But if you’re struggling to hold conversations with people right now, this could be a mental hack you can use to get yourself out of your shell. Become deeply curious about others and pretend you’re a journalist, radio host, or podcaster, and simply ask questions. Key lesson, become interested in others and ask questions about them.

Even better, become a student of psychology and human behavior by listening to and observing others. Number 10, ask for what you want. There are far too many situations in life where subtlety and subtext simply aren’t enough for others to infer what you want or what you’re talking about.

Life often does happen in the gray zones. For example, I think she likes me. I assume they’re going to get in touch.

I should get a raise, but text and email is the absolute worst place to leave people wondering why you contacted them in the first place. If you’ve done your homework and you’ve identified what’s in it for them, then don’t waste any more space or time getting to the point, ask for what you want.

I see far too many people beating around the bush, baiting and switching, telling me they want one thing where it turns out in the second email, they actually want a guest post that’s called baiting and switching and whether you know it, whether you know you’re doing it or not, it’s not a great practice, using multiple emails to communicate what could be said in one email, again, get to the point and so on. And it does more harm than good in building trust with another. When you do this, it’s not a thoughtful approach to conversation.

Here’s a hint, only use customer support, mind maps, decision trees, or sales scripts with qualified leads. You never know when you might be talking to another wizard, especially if you haven’t done your research or homework, and you’re only going to irritate other wizards. I’ve had other wizards approach me without them knowing I’m a wizard too, that I know exactly what scripts they’re using or what decision tree or matrices they’re using.

And all it did was irritate me. I like people to get to the point if they’re going to pitch me on something. So my experience, entrepreneurs, executives, and decision makers like it when you get right to the point.

Key lesson, don’t leave any doubt in their mind. Tell them why you’re contacting them and what you want them to do and make it easy and make it clear as day, because I’ve had people approach me and yes, on occasion, I will do their work for them and suggest a partnership agreement or something that might work for both of us. But most of the time I don’t do that.

So if you’re like, Oh, we just want to get more exposure for a product. That’s not a pitch. It’s not a value proposition.

So I’m expecting people to come to me with a value proposition. I want them to have done their work and that makes next steps easy for me, but it’s really hard for me if you put it on me to figure out how I’m supposed to promote you and also think about why I want to do that in the first place. A couple of examples in dating.

If you’ve exchanged through three to five texts, then ask for their number. If you’re pitching someone propose the exact details of the partnership or cooperation in the first email and so on. Bonus be spontaneous or and or funny humor is the doorway to most things you want out of life.

People like to laugh and if you’re the one making them laugh, they’ll associate those feelings with you. You don’t need to be a comedian. You don’t even need to be able to tell great jokes, be daring and spontaneous, respond to situations in unexpected ways.

And don’t worry about whether the humor lands, because sometimes it doesn’t. You got to read the room a little bit, but sometimes people just don’t respond because they’re not in the mood or they’re thinking about something else, or it’s not on you. Key lesson humor will help you get the date, land the promotion, when the investment money and more.

Everyone can be and should make an effort to be funny. Here are some additional resources, books that I’ve found to be of immense value. Honestly, this is just scratching the surface.

I could have thrown a whole bunch more in here, How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie. That’s essential. Everyone should read that more than once.

Do You Talk Funny? by David Nihill. Good little book about how you can be a little funnier in day to day life.

The Go-Giver by Bob Berg and John David Mann doing things for others without expecting anything in return. That’ll teach you the right mindset to be pitching.

The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck by Mark Manson. He talks about being curious, give up the idea that you’re extraordinary, that you’re among the 10%, I think he says, but it’s really 3%, probably two or 3% who are extraordinary. Give up the idea that you’re one of them and instead become curious of the world around you.

The Slight Edge by Jeff Olson. That’ll teach you how you can build things day by day, rather than expecting results by tomorrow.

Book Yourself Solid by Michael Port. Excellent read for any entrepreneur, really essential.

The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle, because we could all do a better job of being in the present. That’s how we’re going to have better conversations as if we’re not constantly thinking about the past and we’re not constantly thinking about the future, but that we can be present in the moment.

Don’t forget to follow me on Instagram. That’s @davidandrewwiebe and grab a copy of The Renegade Musician. Would you like to grow your following to a thousand followers, subscribers, listeners and beyond, then you need a copy of The Renegade Musician that will lay out the steps.

And that is 10 ways to better conversation or 10 ways to having a better conversation. I kind of like that better.

So what do you think, Jody?

Jody: Lots to unpack there. For me, I think a lot of what I’m up to right now is just being myself and accepting that in the most of it.

I’m going through all that phases of like reading this and doing this and being something that isn’t who I am, like almost felt like it changed my fabric too much. So it was like, it was like getting too much away from me knowing who I am, who is me. So it’s a good, good thing to accept myself for who I am.

David: I actually agree with that. I think getting too buried in tactics and techniques and methodology can take you away from the authenticity of what you’re trying to share with the world. I think there’s kind of a good way to pitch.

I’m not even going to say correct. I think there’s a good way to pitch. That’s why I bring all these things to the fore.

It’s not about behavior modification. It’s like formulating how I can best approach this so that I benefit and the person on the other end benefits.

Jody: Yeah. I think one of the experiences with that, like is when I’ve taken information from somewhere and then tried to implement it into life and then it not going as well as I’d hoped. And I was like, see there, it doesn’t work.

And then it’s like, you know, five years later down the road or even now it’s coming to fruition of being able to practice it in a way that is genuine to myself. So it seems like sometimes it takes longer for me to absorb information and then translate it into a usable voice where other people, as you mentioned, in that like 3% range, there’s a, you know, being extraordinary. I think it’s like, it’s okay to acknowledge that you’re exceptional.

Cause I think we all are as human beings, exceptional human beings. And then going out on a limb and, and then being, you know, being able to acknowledge it and then accept yourself in the state that you’re in right now. I know that it’s going to take time to grow when that time is going to be, whether you take a course, you know, you do a Tony Robbins course, or you do something that is the way it is, there’s a reality to taking time to absorb and become the information for its own.

David: Well, what that made me think of was like, some things don’t exactly come naturally. You could be dribbling a basketball for the very first time. And the first time you do it, although, you know, hopefully you do it when you’re a kid, cause then you’re not really thinking about,” Oh, I suck and “I can’t do this.” You’re just going to keep playing and having fun and trying until you don’t even notice when you gained the competence. And I’m totally with you.

I think until it’s sort of become that unconscious competence, it always feels like effort to try to be something different or more or better.

Jody: I mean, as we age, age is a guideline in the world to, I don’t know if juxtapose is the word, but it’s like, it gives us that connection to what we’ve done in the world and, and what we’ve achieved maybe, or things like that. You know, I’m looking for a job right now. And it’s like, I’m the most experienced I’ve ever been in my entire life.

And it seems like the job market has gotten very slim. And then there’s like the, what so is it is, and it is whatever I say it is. And it’s going to take time.

So of course, when we get in a panic, as you, I think, experienced as well recently, where you, you know, didn’t have a job and then you had a job and then it went, you know, you’re like, Oh, crazy. Like it starts to open up different opportunities, different conversations, and you start to flourish again, or create flow. I think when I’m putting myself out there, speaking the first person, rather than putting ourselves out there, like when I’m putting myself out there in the world so much, it can be pretty taxing.

And you know, in those conversations, I have to remember and remind myself that it’s not personal. You know, my girlfriend came home the other day, it was like, she works at a different job. And she was like, yeah, they put up things, but resumes pile up and they don’t have time to look at them because they’re short shorthanded.

So the reality of it is, is we all start somewhere to do something. And then when it comes to fruition is when we take action on it and follow through with it. And even then, when that happened, they booked an appointment and that person didn’t bother to call it or cancel, and they mended everything around it to work for that person.

And that person no-showed them. So it’s like this crazy thing. And then there’s me on the other side going like, what?

Why would you do that? Be courteous, pick up the phone. And like, but you never know, like I’ve had people being a hairstylist for 15 years, have people be in a car accident or have a family member have an injury or whether those were lies at times or it actually happened.

But some of it had actually happened. So it’s tricky to judge where a person’s at and simply give people courtesy at times. I mean, it’s kind of the world we live in at the moment.

David: Yeah. And so like, I wasn’t even looking for a job. That’s the reality.

I had a staff writing contract. And to me, that was like still within my definable reality of freedom.

So, I thought a job is not going to offer that degree of freedom to me. So I was pretty well convinced that the only way was to continue to figure out how I was going to land the types of contracts I needed. I can see now in retrospect, like I am, it’s not that I’m not doing websites, but me personally, I’m not doing websites anymore.

I may be handling my own stuff, but like I’ve realized a web web design company or a website company is a horrible business. I don’t know how anyone makes any money on it without charging their clients 10, 20K because they always ask for updates. They always ask for changes.

They always ask for more. And then they have like 18 hard drives worth of content. They expect you to figure out how to put on their website.

And even if you tell them it’s a bad decision, if they want it, they’re the client. It’s really great where I ended up and I’m so grateful, of course. But my thinking there is like, if there’s a company that I’m applying to and they got a stack of resumes, they can’t get to, and I know that it’s the case, I might want to go and demonstrate that I’m a good HR person by saying, Hey, just give me your guidelines.

I’ll go through all these resumes, check the ones that apply and then help you find the right candidate for it.

Jody: Yes. It’s funny. It’s all spending, it’s all interjecting time, right?

Like putting it in, as we know, it’s scheduling and making sure that you have a lot of time to manage a specific by when, you know?

But a lot of the world, I think doesn’t operate on that method. It becomes a lot of chaos. And then it’s like, I don’t have enough time, but time isn’t something that we don’t ever get more of.

So we only get the 24 hours in a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year. That’s all we get. There’s no way around it.

You can’t add another hour to a day or like, unless you stay up later and go into the next day and take away from your sleep or whatever. Right. Um, that’s the only way you get more time.

David: Some of my mentors say like, just don’t even try to manage time. Cause it’s a construct anyway. At times it seems to pass slowly.

At times it seems to pass quickly. You can manage your priorities. So I can say today I got priorities one, two, three, and I’m going to do everything I can to have one out of the way and hopefully enough time and energy to get two and three out of the way and that’s it.

Jody: Yeah. So that’s really all you can do. I mean, it’s, it’s like prioritizing is a part of scheduling again.

Cause you already know, like if you’re going to wake up at nine or you’re going to wake up at 10, there’s just things, like I find myself to work better in a structured environment at times, but it’s also, um, do I, because of, do I get too rigid at that point? Do I lose spark? Do I, uh, lose the child likeness, you know, and the adventure of getting things done.

Sometimes, I mean, working on a deadline is great. And then there’s, it doesn’t really matter if it’s a day beyond. And I think it’s, if you’ve given it, um, given your word to something, right.

You honor that, get an integrity with it, but it’s like, don’t just throw it aside and then assume that somebody is going to think it’s okay if you said, I’m going to have this to you tomorrow by 8 PM and then you don’t, and you knew it at eight in the morning, you better just call that person eight in the morning and say, Hey, I need an extension till, you know, 12 PM. And they can say, Hey, no, that doesn’t work for me. And then, you know, the next day, and then they’re like 8 AM works though.

And then they’re like, okay, that’s where you gave those extra hours.

And as you stay up till midnight, you stay up till four and you get it done.

David: I’ve done that. And that’s a great tip. I know enough about myself to know that I’ve got to mix things up.

Sometimes there are even times when, and I don’t really remember them, but my mom will tell the story of school got to be too much, not as in like too much work or like I was overwhelmed emotionally. It was, it was too much the same. Every day was the same and I couldn’t do it.

And I stayed home for a week and then I’d be fine. And she was like, you know what? I’m okay with that.

If you just, if you, all you do is take a couple of days off and go back to school. That’s acceptable. I noticed that too, in my life, if everything gets to be too much the same, I know I’m not experiencing novelty.

Novelty really is the spice of life. If you want, like life seems to speed up a lot of time, but if you want it to slow down, go and experience something different or new. And it seems to slow down.

And I think it’s really needed. At least I know that about myself.

Jody: Yeah. I agree. Just seeing new things or doing new things and able to, um, expand your horizons.

I was going to say on that note, if there’s the like, it’s good, I think to learn tidbits of what you want to do. Like sometimes I’ll sit up at on a YouTube video and I’ll watch like a watch, like a watch repair, like a vintage Rolex or something. It’s just my friends in a watch.

So I was like, just learning about it a bit. And so I was like, okay, this guy’s doing this watch repair on a $25,000 or no, it’s a hundred thousand dollar watch. And I was like, Oh, well, what would that look like?

And I thought that’s kind of interesting. It does it really well. So my, I sent it to my friend and he started watching it.

And now he watches it. We were talking about, he’s like, you should do this as a thing. I’m like, yeah, maybe when I’m like 60, I’m like not in the middle of trying to take something else on, on top of everything that I’m trying to get great at right now.

You know, it is not going to work. So it’s like, it’s the same with music. I think it’s like taking a break for me now, like I’m still doing music and writing, but I’m doing it differently than I might’ve done it in the past.

And that’s too course correct right now to put my priorities in focus that allow me to create space around that. Because I think, you know, as we know, 40s, the new 30, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right.

So it’s like, as we get to 50, you know, we’re going to be in the 40. I mean, does it really matter if I look great and feel great physically? I think it’s like push the limitations as much as you want and don’t put yourself in that confine or construct of age.

As much as possible. You grew up, I think, in a similar era to me. Whereas age was such a, oh, we’re old, you know, like 40 was old back then.

But it’s like now, I mean, I’m looking at 40 as a place of discovery and seeing my fifties could be a great time to plan the next five years and have a really good push for music in my fifties. I don’t know. You know, it’s all going to depend on how healthy I am.

David: I had friends who were saying that at 25 and, you know, now I just let people talk because I just, I don’t know what I don’t know. Maybe they feel old. But at the time I would have like vehemently disagreed.

I would have been like “25, man, life’s just getting started.” And, you know, one thing, like I’m not a huge fan or anything, but one thing I know I have in common with J.Lo, Jennifer Lopez, is we’re constantly saying “I’m just getting started” and “I still have so much to do.”

And someone today said, I look like I’m in my early 30s. Jennifer Lopez doesn’t seem to have aged a whole lot in the last 10, 20 years either. So if you have that mindset of I’m just getting started and I have so much to do, maybe that’s really the secret.

Jody: I think it’s like you said, then the days go by as you choose them to go by their days. And I mean, I think sometimes monetizing time can be good, but it can also become a construct or you become trapped in time.

David: Yeah. It’s, it’s this weird thing of like, people say like passive income doesn’t exist. Some say it does exist and I’m going to teach you how to do it.

And I’m kind of in the middle. I’ve experienced passive income. I’ve had mailbox money come in without really me doing a whole lot, or it was based on past effort, like royalties and things like that, or affiliate commissions based on past efforts.

So to an extent, I think passive income does exist, but I think there’s maturity at least in accepting that you may not become Pat Flynn or James Schramko or one of these other guys that’s earning hundreds of thousands or millions in affiliate commissions. There’s wisdom in accepting that you may end up working a lot for the money that you make and you’re in the same hustle and quote unquote struggle. It’s not necessarily struggle, but a struggle that everyone else is in. Becoming a big time YouTuber. You probably gonna have to put in some effort.

Jody: Yeah. And I think the struggle is part of the journey as I’ve learned, like in like doing some training this year and the struggle is part of the journey. So if you can embrace it, it’s the struggle isn’t a bad thing.

And so many people make it out to be a bad thing. I mean, if I said, Hey, I’m having a struggle to get employment right now, that would be, would that be the truth or the what? So, you know, it’s challenged.

I can acknowledge the challenge. I’m going to have good days. I’m going to have ups and downs throughout this journey of finding new income to fulfill the dreams, you know, but it’s like, there’s the reality of acceptance again, and the struggle is part of life and it’s part of your growth.

If you didn’t struggle, there would be no joy in, or happiness in achieving anything. It would just be numb. We wouldn’t appreciate it.

David: I remember a good two month stretch where it was, it was pretty ambiguous and not certain where things were headed. And I was eating grains and beans and potatoes and spirulina powder, and that was it, and that was my diet.

And yes, you can survive on that. In fact, you can actually lose a lot of weight doing that and it’s super cheap, but I did begin to lose some mental clarity in that process, which does not make it any easier to like apply or figure out what you’re going to do or what business you’re going to launch or what initiative you’re going to do next. And that ends up becoming a really real struggle of finding a job sometimes.

Jody: Yeah. I mean, as I say, I think it’s like a, as an observation, maybe more than an, I think it’s as an observation, it’s yeah. Feeding yourself appropriately in whatever ways it takes and not over take, like if you overeat, you’re going to feel shitty, too much Thanksgiving.

You have like extra pie. You have some, all those treats and stuff or Christmas, whatever it is where you’re taking all that stuff, you’re going to feel pretty shitty. I mean, it’s, you can do that with information as well.

And I think it’s, it’s knowing who you are, challenging yourself in the areas that you can, but not overeating information to a fault. I can’t absorb certain things. That’s why I stopped.

I mean, I read recently, I was telling you, I read the Lenny Kravitz biography. It took me a while, but I was like, I was also cherishing it because it was so good. So I try not to finish it.

And I learned a lot through that. And if you want to read something about a musician’s journey and struggle, I mean, he, even though he met the best people, he stuck true to himself, which I think is why he’s such a authentic musician out there and part of maybe that one to 3% is because he was able to create that opportunity and things kept opening up which I could say has happened before me in some aspects, you know, differently, but it’s like, it all happens differently. And I’m in a good place right now. It’s just a matter of time until it takes its course.

David: Yeah. I think there’s like ebbs and flows to personal development. Just like anything else.

I am a big believer in consistency. However, you may go through stretch stretches where it actually doesn’t make any sense to read more. Like if you’re in a state of elation and you’re loving life and that seems to be going for days and weeks, maybe savor that.

And don’t worry about the personal development books. Cause it’s just a personal development book is a mirror. It’s telling you all your faults and where you could be better in a way.

So there’s a point at which you’re referencing this, that it just becomes toxic nonsense. And some books aren’t that great either.

Jody: I can get, for me, it was really confusing. I was overtaking knowledge at times and it just kind of was contradicting.

So it was like trying to learn one thing, which almost feels like for me, it kind of feels like brainwashing where you’re kind of cleansing some old stuff and replacing it with new stuff. But like, there’s like a forcing of it sometimes of like trying to adapt it, to make it work in life. Because you’re like, this is the way, like the Mandalorian, this is the way.

And it’s like, yeah, it is the way learn it and incorporate it into your life in what amount of time. I think so many times we overstep that and want the shortcut of it. It’s going to do it all right now.

Like if I go to sleep and read this book last night, it’s going to, you know, become the information that I’m able to translate tomorrow. For me, it doesn’t work that way.

David: I don’t think it does for most people. I think again, it’s sort of giving up any shallow notion of like, if time is an illusion anyway, then don’t worry about how long it takes to get there.

Jody: I would hate to overstep that because when you said that, that gave me some freedom over here and in respecting time rather than forcing time, because we can do that or controlling and manipulating time. So we think we’re doing, we’re out of the moment of the present, like times it’s cool, man.

David: Thank you. And one thing I bookmarked from earlier, I had a conversation, a phone conversation with someone who I want to say is 15 or 20 years older than myself.

Anyway, like he’s maybe not retired, but headed in that kind of direction and his whole thought process is basically, man, you need a job because that’s going to take care of, you know, your, your foundational financial needs and that frees you up to work on other things. And, you know, when you, when you’re retirement age, you won’t want to work. So make sure you make a good use of the next 25, 30 years of your life.

Again, it’s one of those cases where I’m listening and because that is wisdom to him, maybe it’ll turn out to be useful for me, my contrast with my mindset. My mindset has always been, I enjoy work. I like doing things.

I like trying to make a dent in the universe and I’m going to be working for as long as I can. Retirement is again, to me, just a concept and not an age. And as far as retiring, I intend to retire early.

That is still the plan. But would I really be doing that much different with my day? I’ll probably choose to do more things outside activities and fun things, but am I still going to be working 23, 20, 30 hours a week?

Probably because they’ll have a mission, but I could be wrong, right? Maybe it will be different when I get to 65. Maybe I will say, yeah, he’s right. I really don’t want to work.

Jody: Yeah. I think it’s, I think it’s a place to prepare for in enjoying the remainder of life to its fullest, like bounty. In a sense, we know, like for me, I had, I did a lot of, I mean, I probably said this before, but you did a lot of impact sports.

So my body took a lot of impacts and in doing so it’s like, it’s been challenging to aid through many like decades of my life, kind of twenties, thirties, through my younger years was my back issues for whatever purpose I had no idea. And in the, in my thirties was, um, like my back and hips, I couldn’t put my socks on. I recovered.

I did the work and it took time. Like it took six to eight months sometimes to turn around and overweight lost weight, you know, in that process right now, it’s different. It’s different than it was before.

So it’s like, how do I adapt and keep my head wrapped around what it is now. And for me, my cousin said, you know, him and I relate to the fact that we like doing things that are fun to, uh, make it easier to do that. So when I got my mountain bike and stuff, it was like, we could go out together and do that.

And it felt great to be active again. My hips started to feel better. Body started to feel like it’s moving again.

And I’m like, whoa, that’s red. And it took something to get there, but it’s like, I’m still every day going, how would I lose enough that, that 45 pounds that’s there that I know that I, you know, I don’t 40, like 45, 40 pounds. That’s there right now that I don’t, I know it’s not running my body the way I need it to.

So I’m like, just because of the way that I felt in the past when it, when I was in a better, um, physical state. So it’s, it’s, it’s a challenge, man. That’s all for the challenge though.

I guess that’s what I’m getting to is like being up to it, you know?

David: Yeah. I think that’s kind of how I took it as well. At the end of the day, I was saying to myself, okay, I hear what he’s saying, time can pass quickly.

So now’s the time to start setting place things in place in my career, making sure that I’m endorsable in my business or blogging or creative life, making sure that I’m pumping stuff out there. Cause I’m going to thank myself later for putting it out there. Now finding a baby mama, that’s, that’s part of the mission too.

So like all these things start to get set them in place so that by the time I get there, I can at least say, you know, I did everything I could to have the life that I meant to have.

Jody: And I think when you’re in the right place and you’ve looked after you, like you’ve mentioned a couple of times today is, you know, and even for myself, the right people come into your life and you can appreciate them more. And you know, there’s that challenge of getting over the us problem, like the accepting of self. Like I, for like the last few years, I’ve been like, I look at myself in the mirror, I’m like, Oh God, who’s that guy?

You know, I look from the side, you’re like, Oh man, what is that gut? You know, or something just like, yeah, I’m like, what the hell? Or somebody take a photo.

And then other times it’s great. So it’s like, it’s, it’s been a journey to like accept my body and my, my mind, my everything every day for what it is. I still learning.

And I think that’s the thing, like you said about JLo, it’s like just getting started and I’ve never been this moment of age, like it’s 7 55 PM on October, what, 25th today, 24th, 2024. We’d never been in this moment after this moment. So it’s like, I really, we’re always just getting that started.

David: I relate to that a hundred percent. I definitely had that struggle through my adult life. I’m, I’m probably the best shape I’ve been in, in my adult life.

Certainly as a teenager, I may have had moments where I was skinnier and all that, but yeah, I remember all those moments. It’s just like, why, why do I look like this? Other guys don’t really seem to look like this.

This is weird, but then, you know, eventually you come to appreciate what, what’s good about you. Like I got my big, broad shoulders and that’s a gift and automatically creates that desirable V that everybody wants as long as my gut’s not too huge. So, yeah.

Jody: And then, and then that’s like the, not to, to, you know, diminish it, but it’s like that guy that’s walking through the bush and he’s like, you know, if you think people are thinking about you, they’re not because they’re too busy worrying about thinking about them. And it’s, I mean, that’s the reality that we just don’t look at outside. Sometimes like you think, Oh, someone’s, someone’s not gonna like me.

It’s like, Ooh, there’s a shit, you know?

David: I’ve been listening to some Jordan Peterson lately, and I don’t really agree with everything he says, but I sort of like that his book is mostly about harsh truths. Even whether they’re true, true or not as a whole other, you know, conversation, but he’s giving you these hard realities so that you don’t take anything for granted, right? You put the effort in where you got to put it in.

Grant Cardone’s 10X Rule, the same thing, not a good book because he thinks it’s an info book. It’s not, it’s a mindset book. Once he realizes that it’ll be a better book, but the theory is right.

That everything’s going to take 10 times the effort, time, energy, money, resources than you think it will.

Jody: See, that’s, that’s somebody, a lot of the time that’s trying to tell somebody how to do the shortcut or get it now, and it’ll be the shortcut. But the thing is, is how your body and mind absorb it is going to be completely different. Cause it’s like, like you said, there’s, if it’s a mindset book, it’s a mindset book, and then it’s how that’s translated from him to me is going to be completely different than him, him going his way that work.

And then I try to implement it in my life and it just takes me all hell bent, you know? Um, it’s, uh, cause my body, my body, my mind, they translate things different than him. And I’m here to be me and not that.

And hopefully, you know, that means to be cared for and wealthy to the state that I can pay my bills and live a great lifestyle and life while I’m here.

David: Ultimately, you know, what we talked about Parallel Universes of the Artistpreneur. Frederick Dodson, and even Vadim Zeland would basically say the same thing that the quote unquote “secret path” is just following your bliss and trying to do what someone else did and following it exactly isn’t a happy life. And is it not going to get you the results you’re looking for?

So I think at the end of the day, we’re just trying to become more us and peel away the layers that are not.

Jody: Yeah, exactly. And it’s like, and that’s really just shedding our, our child, like our old child, that’s the protective child that just keeps going back to the fearful child. It’s really just getting rid of that and embracing it and walking into it and accepting it for who it is.

Cause a lot of my thoughts about body shame and stuff like that all comes from. Like growing up, it’s not now it was back then it has nothing to do with today. It’s so dumb.

David: You know, we got to wrap up soon, but I will definitely leave with this notion that getting rid of those blockages and those deep seated traumas.

I think that’s why I’m now where I am is because I went through that deep inner work with my coach and it was not easy and face all that. And also just not know where the money or the food or any, if anything was going to come from the uncertainty of it, which I, I feel like after a while it became the norm. So I didn’t really concern myself with it.

I was just like, today’s another day. And, but having anything above what I have now, it became a, it became a low benchmark from which I could compare things to. And then when life went from, you know, here to here, all of a sudden I was like, this is so amazing. I’m so grateful.

So, yes. Thanks Jody. Thanks everyone. Hope you got lots out of this. We’ll see you again soon.